フランスの大統領のフランソワ·オランド(François Hollande)氏の欧州金融危機と財政危機に対する面談記事
“La gran amenaza para Europa es que la veamos como ventanilla o reformatorio”
En una entrevista concedida en el Elíseo, François Hollande reflexiona sobre el futuro de Europa
El mandatario sostiene que no se puede "imponer la cadena perpetua a los países que han tomado decisiones difíciles” y aboga por una UE de varias velocidades
Consulte el ESPECIAL EUROPA completo
ENTREVISTA. Carlos Slim, empresario mexicano
ENTREVISTA. Michael Bloomberg, alcalde de Nueva York
ENTREVISTA. Guido Mantega, ministro de Hacienda de Brasil
Berna González Harbour París 17 OCT 2012 - 11:05 CET
"The big threat to Europe is that we see as window or reformatory"
In an interview at the Elysée, François Hollande reflects on the future of Europe
The president says that you can not "impose life imprisonment for those countries that have made hard choices" and advocates a multi-speed EU
See full EUROPE SPECIAL
INTERVIEW. Carlos Slim, a Mexican businessman
INTERVIEW. Michael Bloomberg, Mayor of New York
INTERVIEW. Guido Mantega, Brazil's finance minister
Bern González Harbour Paris 17 OCT 2012 - 11:05 CET
The gardens of the Elysee, the polished floors and large mirrors that multiply from all angles and quiet rhythmic movement of the exclusive services and uniforms uniform protocol of the Presidency have not changed substantially since 1848, when the palace was requisitioned to aristocracy became the seat and symbol of the Republic. What has changed in just months, minutes to the story, is the atmosphere that inevitably slips with each head despite the rigors of the place. If until recently was Sarkozy who received his visits with his hyperactivity, his sunglasses and a theatrical gesture that filled everything today is François Hollande, 58, who has added a touch of seriousness and stillness that accompanies it.
And yet, not quiet exactly what you want.
Faced with a Germany that curbs the union bank plans agreed in June, key for Spain, promises to speed it up a fight. Facing some southern European countries drowned by austerity, insists on keeping the flag flying growth. The battle to rid this Thursday and Friday's European partners promises to renew the old conflict that is weighing solutions to the crisis: acceleration or braking; solidarity or extreme rigor.
Other things, however, have not changed: the political union, says Hollande while receiving six European newspapers for this interview, better after, of a constitutional treaty, the better we forget, and for that matter, on with the multi-speed Europe.
The first time this reporter interviewed Hollande, in 2004, Zapatero had won in Spain and Madrid he visited for inspiration for a battered French socialists. Remembers it well: "It was a great time of hope in Spain."
France's role should be to relentlessly tell our partners that austerity is not inevitable
And that, like the atmosphere of the Elysee, has also changed. Today, in the best case, the hope for change is in France.
Question. The European Union (EU) has been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize on the eve of a new European Council, in which you participate, you will try, once again, save the euro. This award gives everyone an added responsibility. How will they save the euro and Europe?
Response. The Nobel Prize to the EU has been both a tribute and a call. The tribute is to the founding fathers of Europe, having been able to build peace after a massacre. And the call is to the rulers of Europe today, to be aware that it is mandatory to react. On leaving the eurozone crisis, I think we're ready because we take the right decisions at the summit on 28 and 29 June and we will implement them as quickly as possible. For starters, permanently fixing the situation in Greece, which has done so much effort and you have to ensure that you will stay in the eurozone. After responding to the demands of the countries that have made the required reforms and must have funding at a reasonable price. Finally, implementing the banking union. I want that all this is settled by the end of the year. Then we can address changing our ways of making decisions and deepening our union. That will be our big task for the beginning of 2013.
What threatens us is not the nation, is nationalism. Not Europe, Europe is the lack of
P. Those countries that have made efforts, in fact, at great cost to their people, they see improvements. How long do you think it will be able to withstand without a change of strategy to stimulate growth?
R. Since my election, I have done everything possible for Europe to adopt as a priority growth without putting into question the seriousness of the budget, which is indispensable due to the sovereign debt crisis. For I am convinced that if we do not give a new breath to the European economy, disciplinary measures, however desirable they may be, can not result in anything. The return to growth means mobilizing funding at European level, and this is the covenant that passed in June, but also improve our competitiveness and coordinate our economic policies. Countries that are in surplus must revive its domestic demand through increased wages and a drop in retention is the best way to express their solidarity. It is possible, for the good of all, to impose a life sentence for nations that have already made significant sacrifices if their populations are not, at some point, the results of their efforts. Today is so important the threat of recession and deficits!
P. How will you overcome the division that exists between the advocates of austerity and growth?
Political union is the stage that will follow the budgetary union and bank
R. France has the responsibility, as one of the major EU countries, to achieve this compromise between debt reduction and growth, to transform the perspective. I think there are two essential tools. The first is trust. The sooner we get out of the eurozone crisis, that is, before we can fix the Greek situation and before finance get reasonable interest rates debts of well-managed countries, before investors return to the eurozone. We have all the means to act: the European Stability Mechanism, rules of the European Central Bank intervention. Us use. The second tool is to give coherence to European economic policy. We defined a growth pact, and must now be implemented. Some will say that 120,000 million is too little. But what counts is to be spent quickly and well. The EU budget is a factor stimulating the economy, especially through structural funds. Now, I propose we go any further, we mobilize additional resources. The financial transaction tax will be subject to enhanced cooperation. Eleven countries have approved. I would like the product of this fee is used partly to investment projects and in part to a training fund for youth. France's role should be to relentlessly tell our partners that austerity is not inevitable.
P. You say that we are near the start of this crisis. To re-motivate the citizens of Europe, to "restore the magic" European idea what you support? A federal Europe? A Europe of nations?
Down with those summits 'desperately', these summits 'historical', these exceptional appointments
R. The debate is not the same as in the early sixties: the Europe of nations, the federation ... Then there were six countries, then eight, then 12, now we will soon be 27 and 28 with Croatia. Europe, the change of dimension, model has changed. My position is that of a Europe that progress at different speeds, with different circles. We can call ahead, the United precursors, the core, it does not matter, what matters is the idea. We have a eurozone with a heritage that is called single currency and that requires a new way of governing. The eurozone must assume a political dimension. I support the Eurogroup, which brings together finance ministers, strengthen its powers, the president of the Eurogroup have a recognized mandate, clear and long enough. I am also a supporter, and so I told my colleagues in the eurozone, a monthly meeting of heads of state and government of these countries. Down with those summits "desperately", these summits "historical", these exceptional appointments. And who in the past have failed more than ephemeral success. Markets operate every day business decisions are instantaneous. Europe can no longer running behind. The Council of the eurozone will better coordinate economic policy and take, country by country, the appropriate decisions. And that does not exclude other countries. Those who want to join the eurozone will be linked to our discussions. But some countries do not want: that's their prerogative. But why then are coming to say how to run the eurozone? It is a claim that does not seem to respond to our duty to be consistent. Besides all that, is the Europe of 27, soon 28 and in the future. It is a political space of solidarity, a large market, a willingness to economic convergence, social, cultural. I would give a new dimension to youth, college, research, energy. But this can not prevent large Union closer cooperation, those who want to engage in a certain States together with disbursements of resources than the European budget. This is the case of the tax on financial transactions
Nobody thinks that the euro will disappear or that the eurozone will explode into pieces. But the prospect that it will retain its integrity is not enough
P. Some talk of creating an embryonic parliament eurozone is apart. Do not run the risk of becoming EU reduced to euro countries, a two-speed Europe?
R. There is already a multi-speed Europe. But the European Parliament has the vocation to represent the whole of Europe and, if the eurozone is further structure, is perfectly capable of defining reinforced democratic procedures dedicated to the member countries of the eurozone within the European Parliament.
P. For a more integrated Europe with political union, perhaps even a defense policy, does not need a new constitutional treaty is submitted to a referendum?
R. I remember that in 2005 tried this solution and it did not give the expected results ... Because, before launching into an institutional mechanics, Europeans must know what they want to do together. The content should matter more than the frame. Invoked frequently institutional obstacle to not make decisions. I am aware that those who talk of political union were sometimes reluctant to take urgent decisions that would be missed.
P. The Germans?
R. No. They've done several times sincere proposals on political union have not found host. Today we agree. France defends the "integration and solidarity": every time we take a step toward solidarity, unity, ie, respect for common rules regarding governance, must advance. The banking union, which will lead us to have a supervisory body which will be the central bank, and will allow a resolution of the crisis and even a recapitalization of the banks, is a very important competition. This solidarity can not happen without democratic checks and bank union, which seeks to control the financial aspects, will be a milestone in European integration.
P. What actual capacity of France to convince Germany and more countries are reluctant to follow this path?
R. We take joint decisions in the June European Council. And there were some undoubted positive consequences: Calm returned to the markets. The ECB helped clarify its methods of intervention. That is, as far as I'm concerned, all the European Council of June 28, nothing but the European Council of June 28, but applied as quickly as possible. The objective is to regulate everything by the end of the year. Nobody thinks that the euro will disappear or that the eurozone will explode into pieces. But the prospect that it will retain its integrity is not enough. Now we must get out of the economic crisis.
You can not admit that there is a single currency area countries to be financed at 1% at 10 years and 7% other
P. So, the political union is not for now?
R. Political union is then, is the stage that will follow the budgetary union, union bank, the social union. Will a democratic framework of what we have achieved in terms of solidarity and integration.
P. When do you envisage this political union?
R. After the European elections in 2014. The future of the Union will be the great challenge of the consultation. It is the condition for mobilizing people and raising participation rates in a real debate about the future of Europe. European parties should submit their proposals, content, institutional framework and personalities, so enabling them to reach, especially for the presidency of the European Commission.
P. You hear many voices against the goal of reducing the deficit to 3% of GDP. Claude Bartolone [president of the French National Assembly] has come to call it "absurd." Is it possible to reach a European agreement to postpone a year?
R. Not all countries are in the same situation. And a lot of our decisions depend on budgetary discipline and growth. This discussion will take place in 2013. But, with respect to France, I set a goal of reducing the deficit to 3% by 2013 and to restore the balance of public accounts in 2017. For a simple reason: from 2007 to 2012, public debt in France rose from 62% of GDP to 90%. Extending this trend is not sustainable. Moreover, the purpose, at European level to harmonize the interest rates in the eurozone. Monetary policy and fiscal policy must be coordinated. You can not admit that there is a single currency area countries to be financed at 1% at 10 years and 7% other.
P. His election created huge expectations. What would you say to a Greek unemployed who can not afford to go to the doctor?
R. I will do everything possible to ensure that Greece remains in the eurozone and has the resources needed by the end of the year without having to impose new conditions beyond those already accepted the Government of Samaras. But I speak to Spanish and Portuguese, who are paying expensive outrages committed by others: it is time to offer a perspective that is not only of austerity. Spain should be able to meet the specific conditions for access to the financing provided by the European Council on 28 June. It makes no sense to keep adding ballast. France is the link between northern Europe and southern Europe. Rejecting the division of Europe. If Europe was reunited not to fall below the selfishness, every man for himself. Our duty is to set common rules on principles of responsibility and solidarity. As a Frenchman, I do my best to make the Europeans aware of belonging to the same community.
P. Did he also says Angela Merkel?
R. She understands perfectly. The proof is that he has gone to Athens.
Stop thinking that there is one country that pays for everyone else. Not true
P. Worried about the growing resistance in Germany to solidarity with the South?
R. But solidarity is everyone, not only for the Germans! The French, Germans and all Europeans, under the European Solidarity Mechanism (MES). Stop thinking that there is one country that pays for everyone else. Not true. In return, I am aware of the sensitivity of our German friends to the debt problem. Who pays should control who pays should punish. I agree. But the union budget to be achieved by partial mutualisation of debt through Eurobonds. I also know what they weigh the memories of hyperinflation, transmitted from generation to generation in Germany. Intervention methods ECB avoid any danger of that kind, because goes to support the decisions made within the MEE. And what is the MEE, but the States? That is, the ECB will not print money to help indebted countries. Will contribute to more effective monetary policy. Also I have considered the arguments raised in democratic Germany. I recognize that parliaments should be able to authorize the commitments required of States both within the union budget as in the banking union. These common principles allow us to build solidarity. But there is no time to lose. France is ready.
P. In this multi-speed Europe, What place will the Paris-Berlin axis? Is the first circle?
R. It allowing axis acceleration. And, therefore, that the brake can also be otherwise agrees. Hence the need for such consistency between France and Germany. We have an obligation to be united, but that requires having a heightened sense of European interests and, therefore, the commitment. In my opinion, it should not be an exclusive relationship. Europe can not decide between two. The Franco-German friendship should add, associate, assemble. So I have careful not to create divisions between large and small countries supposedly among the founding countries and countries that joined us later. Europe needs all, not just a relationship between governments. The EU institutions, the Commission and Parliament, must play their part. And also appeals to an ambition. The vision historically entrusted to France and Germany. If we could come together, how we will not be able to get it together. It's what we remember during ceremonies for the 50th anniversary of the Elysée Treaty.
P. In his relationship with Angela Merkel, what have you learned from it?
R. It is a clear person who says things ... That saves time. And I have the same attitude. Then, from our respective starting points, we seek the best meeting point. It's easier with explicit starting points with starting points ambiguous and can not be criticized Merkel ambiguous. We have the same schedule, I chose five months ago and the chancellor has his choices in 10, but that we do not postpone decisions.
P. What about you, what gives?
R. ; Ask her. I think he is aware that the alternation in France has created a new situation. It is very sensitive to issues of domestic policy and the requirements of its Parliament. I understand and respect that. But we all have our own opinion. Our common responsibility is that the best interests of Europe.
It's easier with explicit starting points with starting points ambiguous and can not be criticized Merkel ambiguous
P. It is assumed that you are European, but, during the campaign, spoke only of the "French dream" and not the "European dream". What has personal attachment to Europe?
R. The European ideal is contained in the French dream. Forever. The revolutionaries of 1789 envisioned a nation open to all citizens of Europe. Victor Hugo was the first to speak of a United States of Europe. After the carnage of 1914-1918, Aristide Briand and defended the idea of Europe in the name of peace. At the time of the release, both Jean Monnet to Charles de Gaulle, France build Europe was rebuilding. François Mitterrand conceived his presidency on behalf of Europe. That is the view to which I subscribe myself. What I want for my country is to regain the pride and the ability to renew the promise Republican targets young people. Why am European? Because Europe allows us to reach that. And if there is a split between Europe and the nation, then the danger will lose while national cohesion and the European ideal.
P. Is what happened in 2005 with the referendum?
R. It was a serious warning. And do not heed. The current challenge is to restore confidence in ourselves and in Europe. What threatens us is not the nation, is nationalism. It is not Europe, is the lack of Europe.
P. Does that Britain would risk leaving Europe?
R. I want a full UK involved in the construction of Europe, but I can not decide for the British. I saw that by the time they'd be more secluded. The British are bound by commitments they made at the time. They can not ignore. Now, at least, we must recognize that what they say to clear. They are not in the eurozone and in the union budget. For my part, I will not force them.
P. What is the biggest threat to Europe?
R. The one that no longer want. The it is considered, in the best case, a mere window to us to go, some in search of structural funds, agricultural policy and other third parties in search of a check, and in the worst case, a reformatory. It has to make sense of your project and the effectiveness of its decisions. But despite all, Europe is still the most beautiful adventure of our continent. It is the world's leading economic power, political space reference, social and cultural model. Deserves to react to renew hope.
P. Have you seen the worst?
R. The worst thing is, the fear of breaking the eurozone, yes, I think that has happened. But best not here yet. We have to build it ourselves.
Interview by:
Sylvie Kauffmann (Le Monde), Angelique Chrisafis (The Guardian), Bern González Harbour (COUNTRY), Jaroslaw Kurski (Gazeta Wyborcza), Alberto Mattioli (La Stampa) and Stefan Ulrich (Süddeutsche Zeitung)
Translation: Maria Luisa Rodriguez Tapia
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